Discuss: Embracing the Chaos - My Least Favorite 25 Cards In

[Scouseboy]

This thread is for the discussion of Sheldon Menery's latest article, Embracing the Chaos - My Least Favorite 25 Cards In The Format. Where does this article's strategy or logic break down? Could it have used work? What did you like about it? Go to, folks!

[EagleEye]

you forgot about Painter's Servant/Iona, Shield of Emeria as another "awesome" Tooth and Nail pair.

Also loved the vegan comment. So true.

-Andy

[AForsythe]

Ban Time Stretch!

[6demonbag]

We play a lot of 1v1 locally so we banned mindslaver here. I agree with quite a few things on your list in certain decks. I've never minded obliterate except in Jhoira, suspend it, next turn suspend 3 or 4 other spells and say GG.

Local groups should always be willing to make minor changes to their rules if they feel they need to, just remember that when you go to big events etc that others will probably use the main ban lists.

[whiteheap]

can i just ask how arcum daggson gets colossus onto the battlefield when his ability allows you to sacrifice artifact creatures to get non-creature artifacts into play?

otherwise, nice list

[LeeSharpe]

Ban most all of these cards!
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[tempesteye]

Wacky is fun. The problem with wacky is that losing consistently is not fun.
Who was it who said "... you can either bring the most powerful deck you can, or risk being irrelevant."

I think what you're really seeing is format power creep. The more popular EDH becomes, the more you will see the overall power level increase because you're pulling in more competitive players.

The truth is that I agree with your philosophy but once the Spike invasion begins it's hard to roll back.

You might want to check out an article on Pure by AJ_Impy.

It's ostensibly about tribal war but the underlying principle about casual formats vs competitive ones is very applicable.

[phthisisity]

i think playing not to win is deplorable. crying about that is absurd. this is why i could never understand kitchen table players. i play this format because it has some form of deck building constraint but you can still do broken things. that is what makes this game fun. making 80 billion mana and killing everyone or drawing your whole deck is fun. i have NEVER had someone complain about that. we just shuffle up and play again. granted we are all actually competitive and actually WORK at getting better. this game is about who is the best mental gymnast so why cater to the lowest common detonator. no card is worth banning, if you arn't having fun make your deck better.
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EDH is a spike format

[Mo0gLe]

Aw my Zur was a present from Riccardo. Don't do me like that Sheldon. On another note, I must really suck at building EDH decks. My Zur deck is solid, but I've never played a game and thought "Wow this thing should be banned"

I agree with the rest of the list, though I really wish Mindslaver wasn't an issue. Its awesome as a one time thing.
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[thlunarian]

I did a search on the official EDH forums and couldn't find an answer to my question, so here it is.

According to the official rules, if Akroma Angel of Fury is my general, may I play it from the Command Zone as a face-down creature?

If so, then if Akroma dies later on, I assume that I may play it again as a face-down creature for 5 mana (and 7 mana the next time, etc). Is this correct?

Thanks!
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[Iceband]

All these cards are awesome...Cept Zur.. I think you are just whining cause your to casual IMO. Suspending Obliterate, Tidespout Tyrant and Mindslaver with Jhoira is just AWESOME!
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Fun

[Majiqman]

This sounds just like the "fluff" players in table top wargames decrying the "beardy" players.

What does the fluff player do when someone with an even weaker army, but with with more theme and backstory, comes along? Weaken their army to suit?

No, that never really happens.

So, other than each person deciding that their army is appropriately themed and social and calling anyone who is more competitive names, the only fair option is for everyone to bring their best (whether they think that is the most flexible or what).

Win with the kooky army? You obviously get a lot more mad props.
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[mrtcrazyfoo]

Heh, I'm as Spikey as they come, but when I play casual formats, especially multiplayer ones, although I absolutely definitely play to win, I play to have fun...Fun doesn't involve a game where I'm the only person doing anything. Fun isn't the game where I kill everyone with an easily assembled combo (and the 100-card deck really doesn't affect how easy it it to put together a combo). Fun isn't an arms race where every week the decks get so finely tuned that any new players don't want to start playing the format because they'll just get crushed over and over. Fun is laying a Dragon Roost, asking if people can deal with it, then if they do, running out Bloodfire Colossus and asking them if they're sure they want to attack you? I've used any number of the cards on that list, but have I ever recurred a Mindslaver in EDH? Have I hell...once is quite enough. Anyway, more than once just puts a big target on your head, which tends to lose you multiplayer games...
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Richard Smith
Two big results last year, looking for more this year!

[stealthbadger]

[Shire5k]

[KarooMeerkat]

I always felt like Time Stretch was a lot worse than Mindslaver. Even a Mindslaver lock could only stop one opponent (and usually leave you defenseless). Time Stretch 90% of the time is game over. I have taken all my Mindslavers out of my decks anyway so I can set a good example. It does make me said that I can never take someones turn and then Fact or Fiction ever again. I have taken Magister sphinx out as well.

On another note I was hoping to EDH vs. Sheldon at Grand Prix Tampa and I never saw him at the gunslinging tables. I felt cheated.

[theharangue]

With all due respect, this article came across as really really whiney.

This strikes me as the same attitudes that make MTGO so unfun. I play a LD spell, a counter spell, or a discard, and my opponent drops.

You are asking that the whole game be defined that way you want to play, fair enough, but how do you throttle back gamers in an equitable fashion?

Gamers play to win, and I am not saying win at all costs, but just to win.

You sound as if this is indicative of some deep seated character flaw.

Your opening premise is wildy unpleasant, "If you use any of the cards on this list, you are not a good person, don't understand EDH the way I understand (Clearly superior to your understanding) and are the type of person that I don't like".

Yes I paraphrased, but the implications were not particularly subtle.

There is a TCG that consists of no playing on your opponents turn and wins with just creature attacks.

Its called Pokemon. You should play that instead of magic.

[Prof_Hydra]

And the 'Completely missed the point' award goes to...

[BeelzuBob]

[Prof_Hydra]

Ooh, maybe I was too hasty...

[theharangue]

My point is, these basic color pie abilities are defining arch-typical magic abilities.

Furthermore, I play MTGO so infrequently, my card pool in nil and I am not playing OP decks. But just a generic blue Magpile is enough to get people to drop without even playing.

Discard, LD, and counters are as much a part of magic as is burn and mana ramp to fatties, and white weenies. Why are some cards acceptable and some are not?

I guess that gets to the heart of my problem with this article, everything on the list is legal to play, but "Is bad because the author doesn't like it" and the implications of character defects of those that do like it, is insulting and inappropriate.

[Feral Thallid]

[Majiqman]

[theharangue]

Ha ha, I don't miss the point at all, I just don't agree with the point. The two are not the same.

I am clearly just not expressing myself adequately.

I 100% understand social play and good sportsmanship, and any house rules a "house" chooses is fine with me.

I play FNM, but I also play a lot of pre-constructed decks with 10 year olds.

I just don't understand how a equilibrium can be maintained between what I am able to play, and what someone else thinks is unfun or unfair.

How many cards do I need to cut until I understand your version of MtG?

How many strategies do I need to discount so that I am an "Okay guy" by your definition?

Can I play in your group if I lose all the time?

I just think the attitude embodied in this article and by some of the responders in this thread represents a sort of "Casual-elitism."

At what point is the balance struck between my desire to play the game the way I am legally allowed to and your concept of the what the game should be?

[darkmindtone]

Enjoyed this article quite a bit, and will be recommending at least one of our local players who loves playing many of these cards (Decree and Obliterate as examples) to give it a read.

I'd also consider myself a spike that loves his casual formats. When I'm playing EDH I just want to have a good time and watch awesome stuff happen. Cards like the recently printed Rite of Replication are the kinds of things that make for awesome stories. I understand people wanting to get cutthroat and do all they can to win, as I usually have the same attitude in other formats, but I shelve that mindset when I sit down for a game of EDH.
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