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Sti
Joined: 30 Nov 2003
Posts: 1376
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Sti wrote: | Then why did you bother in the first place? It is pretty clearly to me that your first point was a at best massive hyberbole. You were never trying to change anyone's mind with reasonable points you were clearly trolling.
If someone went on a poker forum and said the topx of this event are mostly randoms clearly poker is mostly luck you would get a pretty similar responce. |
I feel kind of silly even responding to you at this point since you quite obviously don't... get it... but the top 8 of any given poker tournament IS mostly luck. The skill set involved in being successful long term at poker as compared to Magic is still nowhere near the same, a comparison you can't really make empirically (which I'm starting to realize is the extent of your debating skills) but rather theoretically from people who play both (and there is a large overlap). Instead of trying to defend an obviously stupid game, what you should be doing is writing WotC and putting pressure on R&D to raise the skill cap of this game because the potential is there. |
There is a huge difference between any single event containing luck and most games being so simple that a good player can't beat a bad one.
You complain about my debating skills but can't even seem to remember the point you are trying to defend.
Maybe I don't get it because you are wrong. you have started from the point that you are clearly right and don't even need to explain in any detail why this is so. Maybe it isn't the rest of the world maybe it is you.
Feel free to bring any of these magic/poker player to support yourself but random hearsay doesn't support your point at all. |
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DDRMaster
Chili Boy
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Sti wrote: | Then why did you bother in the first place? It is pretty clearly to me that your first point was a at best massive hyberbole. You were never trying to change anyone's mind with reasonable points you were clearly trolling.
If someone went on a poker forum and said the topx of this event are mostly randoms clearly poker is mostly luck you would get a pretty similar responce. |
I feel kind of silly even responding to you at this point since you quite obviously don't... get it... but the top 8 of any given poker tournament IS mostly luck. The skill set involved in being successful long term at poker as compared to Magic is still nowhere near the same, a comparison you can't really make empirically (which I'm starting to realize is the extent of your debating skills) but rather theoretically from people who play both (and there is a large overlap). Instead of trying to defend an obviously stupid game, what you should be doing is writing WotC and putting pressure on R&D to raise the skill cap of this game because the potential is there. |
Is it possible you don't fully understand the game since you clearly don't commit all that much time to it? I've played WoW probably as much as you've played Magic and I really don't understand where skill plays out in the game. But I don't go claiming the game is skillless because obviously people are better than others. I just don't fully grasp it. Is that impossible for you to admit?
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12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: chili boy
12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: the 17th invitationalist |
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Freakmonger
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | why this game plays as straightforward as it does |
if you play on auto pilot it's no wonder you're reading top 8 reports instead of writing them |
That's cute, it just so happens I do play other games competitively for a living |
lol you play WoW for a living |
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zizek
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | why this game plays as straightforward as it does |
if you play on auto pilot it's no wonder you're reading top 8 reports instead of writing them |
That's cute, it just so happens I do play other games competitively for a living |
lol you play WoW for a living |
And you pay money to play Magic. |
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Freakmonger
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| hahaha |
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Seeker after Chaos
Custom Title:
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 4340
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | why this game plays as straightforward as it does |
if you play on auto pilot it's no wonder you're reading top 8 reports instead of writing them |
That's cute, it just so happens I do play other games competitively for a living |
lol you play WoW for a living |
And you pay money to play Magic. |
You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.)
_________________
| Mike Long wrote: | | In this game, what are you looking for but a two-for-one? |
| RidiculousHat wrote: | | Sorry, not everything is enormous tech. We just like attacking for two. |
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Freakmonger
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| no this is totally beneath him... you must be just another person with horrible reading comprehension and debate skills |
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zizek
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | why this game plays as straightforward as it does |
if you play on auto pilot it's no wonder you're reading top 8 reports instead of writing them |
That's cute, it just so happens I do play other games competitively for a living |
lol you play WoW for a living |
And you pay money to play Magic. |
You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.) |
This paradox seems to confuse you. I still play this game, never claimed otherwise; the fact I think it's stupid and generally void of skill is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that I play it because I play it specifically for that reason. It's the same reason I play Hearts. Poker gets physically stressful to play after a while so playing cards with morons is my escape from... playing cards with morons. |
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DDRMaster
Chili Boy
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Freakmonger wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | why this game plays as straightforward as it does |
if you play on auto pilot it's no wonder you're reading top 8 reports instead of writing them |
That's cute, it just so happens I do play other games competitively for a living |
lol you play WoW for a living |
And you pay money to play Magic. |
You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.) |
This paradox seems to confuse you. I still play this game, never claimed otherwise; the fact I think it's stupid and generally void of skill is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that I play it because I play it specifically for that reason. It's the same reason I play Hearts. Poker gets physically stressful to play after a while so playing cards with morons is my escape from... playing cards with morons. |
So I guess you ignore what I said because I just foiled your trolling? Either way you're proving my point.
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12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: chili boy
12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: the 17th invitationalist |
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Kibler
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:48 am Post subject: |
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I thought that name looked familiar. Hi Zizek. I used to play arena with Memri/Jasi/Rigg/Jeffro/Fayth/Piing/etc when I played WoW.
Going to MLG Anaheim this weekend? |
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TimCapes
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:00 am Post subject: Various |
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I find it humorous that people are actually making an argument defending the level of skill in the game by dragging up this one example from 11 years ago. If you don't know good examples that are far more recent, this would appear to be strong evidence in favour of zizek's claim that current design is resulting in less skill in Magic.
Personally I think that Magic does have a lot of issues as a skill game. In a lot of ways Magic is at a comparable skill level to poker. Poker SNG specialists, attempt to cash about 35-40% of 10 person SNGs with a higher than usual number of first places (These tourneys pay 3 places so if poker were purely random this would be 30% cashing). When successful this slightly above average performance results in profits.
In Magic is one were to win 1.33% of 100 person tourneys instead of the perfectly random 1% one would not be considered a good player. The standard is much higher. At the same time magic eludes the level of skill in a game like chess where when two great players play each other it always comes down to mistakes.
The oft repeated cliche about no one playing a single game of magic perfectly is a complete nonsense. I've played an entire match perfectly. It went g1 Clear Mulligan, Clear Mulligan, keep 2 lands 3 spells in slow format, play lands in correct order don't draw anything castable or 3rd land, lose. g2 repeat a variant of g1. I may have lost, but I didn't make any mistakes.
I think the top players in Magic are very good bets to 4-2 or better 6 round tournament. Which is enough to make a good living at poker, but is only an also-ran record at magic. |
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Freakmonger
Joined: 08 Mar 2009
Posts: 151
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| its also super funny that anyone thinks poker is a more skillful game since 99% of decisions can be made by looking at a chart and a different random wins the world championship every year |
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Kibler
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Dunning-Kruger in the house. |
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zizek
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kibler wrote: | I thought that name looked familiar. Hi Zizek. I used to play arena with Memri/Jasi/Rigg/Jeffro/Fayth/Piing/etc when I played WoW.
Going to MLG Anaheim this weekend? |
No, I haven't played in LAN in over a year, the organization that was sponsoring us pretty much switched back to console only. But the money I made from WoW is where I got the money to start playing poker. |
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Kibler
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Posts: 176
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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I don't even have WoW installed on a functional computer anymore. I pretty much quit a month before Honolulu. Seems to be working out well enough  |
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Seeker after Chaos
Custom Title:
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 4340
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.) |
This paradox seems to confuse you. I still play this game, never claimed otherwise; the fact I think it's stupid and generally void of skill is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that I play it because I play it specifically for that reason. It's the same reason I play Hearts. Poker gets physically stressful to play after a while so playing cards with morons is my escape from... playing cards with morons. |
It does confuse me. Why would you pay money to read strategy articles on a Magic website when you are claiming... you know what? I clearly missed something.
_________________
| Mike Long wrote: | | In this game, what are you looking for but a two-for-one? |
| RidiculousHat wrote: | | Sorry, not everything is enormous tech. We just like attacking for two. |
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zizek
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Posts: 33
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.) |
This paradox seems to confuse you. I still play this game, never claimed otherwise; the fact I think it's stupid and generally void of skill is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that I play it because I play it specifically for that reason. It's the same reason I play Hearts. Poker gets physically stressful to play after a while so playing cards with morons is my escape from... playing cards with morons. |
It does confuse me. Why would you pay money to read strategy articles on a Magic website when you are claiming... you know what? I clearly missed something. |
$5 a month is extremely trivial for me. I pay over $30/hour in rake alone. I pay for this site for limited articles mostly and also because I know one of the content writers in real life. |
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Seeker after Chaos
Custom Title:
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 4340
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | $5 a month is extremely trivial for me. I pay over $30/hour in rake alone. I pay for this site for limited articles mostly and also because I know one of the content writers in real life. |
...But you're paying money. And you even say you're "mostly" doing it for something that is strategic content.
So then you must be paying for some advice on decision-making. I just can't reconcile this at all with your earlier posts.
_________________
| Mike Long wrote: | | In this game, what are you looking for but a two-for-one? |
| RidiculousHat wrote: | | Sorry, not everything is enormous tech. We just like attacking for two. |
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DDRMaster
Chili Boy
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| zizek wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | zizek wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | You pay money to read about Magic. Glass house, stones, et cetera.
(So do I, as it happens! Just sayin' is all.) |
This paradox seems to confuse you. I still play this game, never claimed otherwise; the fact I think it's stupid and generally void of skill is perfectly reconcilable with the fact that I play it because I play it specifically for that reason. It's the same reason I play Hearts. Poker gets physically stressful to play after a while so playing cards with morons is my escape from... playing cards with morons. |
It does confuse me. Why would you pay money to read strategy articles on a Magic website when you are claiming... you know what? I clearly missed something. |
$5 a month is extremely trivial for me. I pay over $30/hour in rake alone. I pay for this site for limited articles mostly and also because I know one of the content writers in real life. |
You clearly won't listen to reasonable arguments to your unreasonable claims. Do you consider instigating people more worth your time than playing Poker or WoW?
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12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: chili boy
12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: the 17th invitationalist |
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Seeker after Chaos
Custom Title:
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
Posts: 4340
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| DDRMaster wrote: | | You clearly won't listen to reasonable arguments to your unreasonable claims. Do you consider instigating people more worth your time than playing Poker or WoW? |
Speaking as the roommate of a poker player, you certainly can play poker and put some Goblins into play at the same time, na mean?
_________________
| Mike Long wrote: | | In this game, what are you looking for but a two-for-one? |
| RidiculousHat wrote: | | Sorry, not everything is enormous tech. We just like attacking for two. |
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DDRMaster
Chili Boy
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | DDRMaster wrote: | | You clearly won't listen to reasonable arguments to your unreasonable claims. Do you consider instigating people more worth your time than playing Poker or WoW? |
Speaking as the roommate of a poker player, you certainly can play poker and put some Goblins into play at the same time, na mean? |
For sure. But for someone who considers playing Magic a waste of their income and vast intellect, trolling a MTG forum seems even moreso.
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12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: chili boy
12:34 INV_JeffCunningham: the 17th invitationalist |
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aclaiborne
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 621
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| DDRMaster wrote: | | Seeker after Chaos wrote: | | DDRMaster wrote: | | You clearly won't listen to reasonable arguments to your unreasonable claims. Do you consider instigating people more worth your time than playing Poker or WoW? |
Speaking as the roommate of a poker player, you certainly can play poker and put some Goblins into play at the same time, na mean? |
For sure. But for someone who considers playing Magic a waste of their income and vast intellect, trolling a MTG forum seems even moreso. |
When someone in these forums that does what you're doing, he gets his rocks off. Some intellectuals love Jerry Springer shows, some bet on the hard luck of someone, some lavish in a peoples mistakes - reminding them at every whim of the failures made, and some just enjoy making lives miserable just to engulf their own mind in a warm fuzzy blanket of self assurance that they're superior.
So, yeah...argue with him on the internet.
/popcorn |
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TimCapes
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:53 pm Post subject: Reading vs Playing |
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| There was a time when I was reading SCG and not actually playing magic. I enjoyed the illusion of magic as a wonderful skill game but everytime I played the illusion got shattered. Too many games would be of the mull mull lose variety, or land issues. In most tournaments too few games were decided on skill, particularly since most formats at the non-PT level are fairly established. |
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