This thread is for the discussion of Ted Knutson's latest article, Ill-Gotten Gains - Musings About the 2008 Hall of Fame. Where does this article's strategy or logic break down? Could it have used work? What did you like about it? Go to, folks!
This thread is for the discussion of Ted Knutson's latest article, Ill-Gotten Gains - Musings About the 2008 Hall of Fame. Where does this article's strategy or logic break down? Could it have used work? What did you like about it? Go to, folks!
I was gonna say, can't you only advocate not voting for one if you also don't vote for the other?Then again, if you do vote for Oli, please find space for Mike Long on your ballot as well...
Magic could use the excitement.
Not a contradiction in your case, or indeed in most... but it's there to be thought about. Comes back to the whole "Should Long be in?" fight.
Originally Posted by Mike Long
I'm absolutely ecstatic that you wrote this, Ted. My feelings are basically the same. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people will try to defend/vote for him because of the nice guy routine.
You're one of the few people that is in the position to write this article that is also in the position to be able to submit it and not care. Any chance of you doing any coverage? I'd love to hear a follow-up to say whether or not cheating is less now than it used to be like we all think. P.S., how widespread is it? Just a few big cases?
DCI Level 2 Judge
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Articles by Me
"So no more running. I aim to misbehave." - Captain Mal Reynolds, "Serenity"
Good read, hope you start writing weekly or even bi-weekly.
i love you, teddy cardgame.
It really is nice to read something from you again, please do more.
Art Gallery: www.vegeta2711.deviantart.com
"I have no excuses, least of all for God. Like all tyrants, he is not worthy of the spit you would waste on negotations. The deal we have is infinitely simpler -- I don't call him to account, and he extends me the same courtesy."
Hey Ted, thanks for bringing this back to everyone's attention. Incidentally, how do you feel about Maher being in the HOF? All evidence seems to indicate that he never cheated in an actual game, so all of his results once he reached the PT were legit... but then again, if not for his cheating, he may have never reached the PT in the first place. What's your take?
Thank you for writing this. People needed to be reminded of this, and I'm glad it came from someone with your years of experience in the field.
It makes me sad that even you don't have me on your ballot
Very nice.
I only met Olivier Ruel once (at GP Buenos Aires very recently) and he was very classy.
I also sat behind him for 2 matches, and didn't see any shady behavior.
But I understand he DID do some strange shenanigans... I wonder if it wasn't something similar to what Limited wonderkid Nick Eisel did... having some pressure on himself to win "all the time" and even though he's better than 99% of us, he still wanted to give himself an (illegal) edge (In Olivier's case, I understand it was getting extra information about an opponent's deck... a far cry from altering a Sealed Deck, but a bannable offence nonetheless).
If he has repented (his statements at the time got me ambivalent IIRC) I would vote him in in a heartbeat... all the rest of his resume and his personality make him an ideal ambassador for the game.
To Brian Kibler:
I used to follow you on the Sideboard, and I think many people remember your playing with Dragons back in Invasion... but I don't think you were good enough for the HOF. Sorry. My 2 cents from South America.
Ted it is great to read more work by you. Please try to do more!
You were in pretty good position to watch Oli through the years. You make a convincing argument. I think it would be hard to justify him as a first ballot HOF'er.
Question, do you or would you support a HOF ban for cheating? Hypothetically, or in regards to Oli and Long?
That was a very strong piece, Ted.
Carve it on my grave:
"Played burn.
Drew 8 lands straight.
Won."
True story.
Kibler, I remember you. I know that smooths it aaall out.
Olivier didn't know how bad bribery was in 2001 (not many of us did at the time), he talks about it on the wizards website in one of his columns.
As for the shuffling, he was banned 6 months for unsporting conduct as it was never proved that he had cheated.
If you're so sure he is a cheater, could you please provide us with some facts, examples?
and there was that "shady" issue with his opponent glasses as well.
Here's an example. . .
He was banned for cheating.
First of all, I'm not buying the "he didn't know any better" appeal for the bribery case. I only played at the local FNM level, and even *I* knew bribery=cheating. The PT had been around, what, 5-6 years at that point? I don't really believe someone could not know that rule at the PT level- maybe GP, but not PT.
And Ted offers one bona-fide example of where Oli was caught cheating- even if it was impossible to unequivocally PROVE that he was cheating, when someone shuffles their opponent's deck with the cards facing them, it seems pretty cut-and-dry as to what their intent is. Ted says that a lot of his last article was based on cheats he saw Oli pull off, so just assume that Oli has done about 40% of the things in that article. I'm sure if Ted really wanted to, he could name other instances of where he was pretty sure Oli cheated, but in my opinion the evidence in the official records is strong enough, and furthermore anything he said here would be merely hearsay.
Ultimately, Ted has absolutely no reason to tell us that he has observed Oli being shady multiple times unless he has in fact done so; I'm therefore inclined to believe him even if I do agree that Oli seems like a personable and likable guy and even if I do wish someone with such an outstanding resume could be included in the HOF.
Is there a place to read about the circumstances regarding bannings? Judge list perhaps?
(Also, I was looking at the suspended player page just now and that Massimo Esposito guy who got banned for life is totally not on it any more)
If you had read this thread, you would have known that he has been banned for unsporting conduct, which is hardly cheating...Here's an example. . .
He was banned for cheating.
But he has got his ring no ?In 2002, Maher was suspended from the DCI for 6 months for committing tournament fraud. He used the rating points gained in the tournaments to qualify for the World Championships.
So if we follow exactly what you said, Bob Maher must be bring his ring back and Oli must absolutly not be a hall of famer because he was ban for Unsporting Conduct, which is less important than Maher's actions ?
hmm... I don't think so
There are two big differences between Oli and what Maher did. First, Maher blew the whistle on himself, which is in fact quite sporting.
Secondly, and more importantly, Maher never cheated within a game. He cheated to get to the pro level, but once there he was completely clean by all indications, and it's what a player does when he gets to the pro level that determines whether or not he should be in the hall; his PT and GP accomplishments did not come as the result of any unfair advantage he gained against the other players in the room. With Oli, on the other hand, because he was caught gaining information by looking at his opponents' decks--and don't be naive and call it "unsporting conduct," that's exactly what he was doing, which is CHEATING--will now forever have the question of just how many of his match wins over the years came as the result of information he illegally gained hanging over his head.
Now I'm not saying that the argument that Maher shouldn't be in the hall isn't completely without merit, though I personally disagree with that notion. However, there is significant difference between what Maher did--which is cheating to get himself to the PT, but then win his games fairly once he got there--and what Olid did--which is cheat in the games AT the PT. In my mind, cheating AT that level is much worse.
If he was spoted "gaining information" (looking at the deck while shuffling), he would have been banned for cheating, not unsporting conduct.
I see absolutely NO DIFFERENCE,Secondly, and more importantly, Maher never cheated within a game. He cheated to get to the pro level,
without his fake tournaments, there would be less of his accomplishements at GP/PT
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